Outline [Standard] Linear+ Is schizophrenia real?

I'm removing this discussion out of the pics thread. I started it by claiming that schizophrenia and bipolar or the pair of those diagnoses, schizoaffective aren't real. I want to start a mature debate. You post all the evidence that you guys can find (Google) and I'll try to find flaws in it at least to a good point. If I don't convince you that it is not real, I at least want to prove to the internets, that I'm not crazy and that most of my previous and current doctors are quacks.

I'll start this discussion by asking the question: What is the definition of schizophrenia? It is a loose hope of mine that no two definitions, that you can come up with, will be the same. Now you don't have to be an asshole and copy paste the first definition posted and say that you found the same definition; But then again, don't just paste from some medical website with only two paragraphs either.

It's like autism or ADD; many people have the disease in different amounts. That doesn't mean you have the full-on disorder.

Definitely not real. Also: We never went to the moon. Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA. The government is pumping chemicals into the sky to control the weather. AIDs and Ebola were "manufactured" viruses. Princess Diana was murdered by the Royal Family.

Oh, and everybody but you is a robot.

I would say the fact that certain medications serve to reduce the symptoms of schizophrenia is a rather solid piece of evidence for its existence. After all, how do you reduce something that doesn't exist?

well if it's not real, I find it very odd that the other identical twin has a 50% chance of getting schizophrenia if the other has it. that's quite a leap for a fake disease that is linked highly to genetics.

I think there's a case for many behavioral and mood disorders being merely aspects of normal personality, but schizophrenia? That is one f**king hell of a stretch. Some people cannot function in any sort of capacity, whether that be working or forming relationships, because of it. It can be completely debilitating and cause severe paranoia, hallucinations, difficulty speaking or thinking coherently, severe withdrawl, psychosis, etc. Some people are rendered CATATONIC. Plenty of mystery surrounds schizophrenia, but discounting it as a real illness seems absurd to me.

Edit: Theres your criteria for diagnosis.

A. Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):

(1) delusions

(2) hallucinations

(3) disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)

(4) grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior

(5) negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition

Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.

B. Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).

C. Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).

D. Schizoaffective and Mood Disorder exclusion: Schizoaffective Disorder and Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features have been ruled out because either (1) no Major Depressive, Manic, or Mixed Episodes have occurred concurrently with the active-phase symptoms; or (2) if mood episodes have occurred during active-phase symptoms, their total duration has been brief relative to the duration of the active and residual periods.

E. Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.

F. Relationship to a Pervasive Developmental Disorder: If there is a history of Autistic Disorder or another Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the additional diagnosis of Schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/schiz.htm

It shouldn't matter what each of us perceives to be characteristics of schizophrenia, we aren't f**king doctors. I think it would be wise for you to present your arguements for it being a fabricated affliction before we write the topic off as nonsense.

This post has been edited by faber: Aug 16 2008, 01:02 AM

I would say the fact that certain medications serve to reduce the symptoms of schizophrenia is a rather solid piece of evidence for its existence. After all, how do you reduce something that doesn't exist?

Exactly.

The only argument you could make that schizophrenia isn't 'real' is that all the people who have it are intentionally faking it.

This seems unlikely.

Just playing devil's advocate

It is possible that people diagnosed with Schizo, Bipolar etc. have no biological disease, and any problem is purely behavioral, and drug therapies don't actually address the problem they merely compensate it by making the brain counteract the symptoms, but in a completely different way that schizofrenia affects people.

I would say the fact that certain medications serve to reduce the symptoms of schizophrenia is a rather solid piece of evidence for its existence. After all, how do you reduce something that doesn't exist?

There is a such thing as the placebo effect. When someone with severe emotional and mental problems (not necessarily a disease) is told that they will get better, chances are they will, no matter what you put in the medication.

I'm removing this discussion out of the pics thread. I started it by claiming that schizophrenia and bipolar or the pair of those diagnoses, schizoaffective aren't real. I want to start a mature debate. You post all the evidence that you guys can find (Google) and I'll try to find flaws in it at least to a good point. If I don't convince you that it is not real, I at least want to prove to the internets, that I'm not crazy and that most of my previous and current doctors are quacks.

I'll start this discussion by asking the question: What is the definition of schizophrenia? It is a loose hope of mine that no two definitions, that you can come up with, will be the same. Now you don't have to be an asshole and copy paste the first definition posted and say that you found the same definition; But then again, don't just paste from some medical website with only two paragraphs either.

Dude, its a real disease man. You can always find examples of where doctors were negligent or wrong about a particular diagnoses but that doesn't mean that a certain disorder/disease is non-existent. Perhaps in your case the doctors you've gone to are wrong, maybe you don't have schizophrenia. It's just as likely that you do and that you're in denial or you don't have the ability to accept the fact that you may have a disorder.

I'm not going to post evidence that schizophrenia exists. The burden of proof is on you, as you're trying to argue that an entire field of science is incorrect. I mean, what really could I possibly link you? Medical journals that discuss their latest findings on schizophrenia/bipolar disorder? A text book discussing the two disorders?

Furthermore, you're not qualified in anyway to post what you deem flaws in the "theory" (I don't know what other word to use there) of schizophrenia/bipolar disorder. In the Pics thread you proved your very base knowledge of what neuroimagery is. You baselessly claimed that the various scans provided by other members depicted patients who illustrated the chemical and physical differences inherent in those diagnosed with schizophrenia were invalid because the patients were on "meds." On the contrary, I can assure you the images provided depicted patients were not on any medication, as that would defeat the purpose of running any type of experiment. Surely you're not suggesting you're able to organize and run better testing procedures than doctors who study schizophrenia? Unless there is a mass conspiracy to keep those with schizophrenia/bipolar disorder down, it's very unlikely that these doctors don't know how to conduct proper scientific studies.

The definition of schizophrenia (like most definitions in the psychological field) can vary slightly from source to source and is also an extremely broad umbrella encompassing various degrees and types of the disorder. Do you really want me to paste you one?

"Schizophrenia is a severe mental disorder characterized by delusions, hallucinations, incoherence and physical agitation; it is classified as a "thought" disorder while Bipolar Disorder is a "mood" disorder."

"A chronic, severe, and disabling brain disease. People with schizophrenia often suffer terrifying symptoms such as hearing internal voices or believing that other people are reading their minds, controlling their thoughts, or plotting to harm them. These symptoms may leave them fearful and withdrawn. Their speech and behavior can be so disorganized that they may be incomprehensible or frightening to others."

I reject that because there may be nuances in a definition of a psychological disorder that the disorder is made up or not real. That's an extreme extrapolation.

The definition of schizophrenia has been changed so many times that every modern mental illness at one point in time used to be known as schizophrenia. This is because schizophrenia is a term that covers just about everything a person can think or do. Schizophrenia was once defined as split personalities. It was once defined as disturbed thinking or mood. Schizophrenia can also be delusions of grandiose or being persecuted. It can also mean visual hallucinations and audio hallucinations. Obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors used to been called schizo and why not add depression and lethargy to the definition of schizophrenia as well, it's a catch all disease after all.

Maybe it's because the definition of schizophrenia is so vague, that doctors aren't sure what to look for. They say schizophrenia is caused biologically like injury to the brain or organically like deformations of the brain. Other doctors will turn that logic down and say that it is caused an imbalance of neurotransmitters like dopamine, serotonin, or transmethylation. So basically it's either Cerebral Palsy Junior or Bipolar Senior.

When you are hospitalized, there are no brain scans. There is no biopsies. It's just a five minute visit with your doctor. He/she is usually in a hurry, because there are about 50 other beds to see in that shift (There are a lot of schizos in hospitals eating up your tax dollars. It's roughly 900 dollars a night, I was in for six months, so math that massive beast.). So your doctor observes you for five minutes, asks a few questions, but he might as well only ask one question, "Are you a schizo?" because if you answer "yes" to any of those questions, you will be diagnosed with some kind of mental illness. They make you pee in a cup to see if you are on any narcotics, but even if they find narcotics, the doctor won't blame your psychosis on them. They found a ton of THC from marijuana in my first hospitalization, but that still didn't stop them from diagnosing me with bipolar.

Then you are put on about 10000mg of different anti-psychotics. They all have different names, but they all do the same thing, block dopamine. Dopamine is the brain's natural pleasure system so without it you are more depressed then an emo goth reading poems at a graveyard. But depression isn't the worst part of it. Anti-psychotics are dangerous and experimental. They can f*ck up your brain more than it already is. I myself have experienced akathasia, it's like epileptic tremors. Most of it went away, because I switched meds, but I still twitch every now and then. Most anti-psychotics are nueroleptic and can fatally f*ck up your body or your heart. They can also cause diabetes. In every box of meds, there is giant fold out with tiny print of all the side effects. It would take forever for me to type them all out.

Are you arguing that it is often misdiagnosed or that it doesn't even exist. Because the homeless people outside my apartment are certainly not getting much out of this scam.

I believe he's saying doctors are quick to diagnose and quick to prescribe dangerous, experimental and unnecessary drugs, and that the US medical system sucks.


I think the point being made here is that schizophrenia currently describes a set of symptoms.

It may be impossible to point to something and say 'here, this is the cause of schizophrenia', because such a cause may not exist.

Also, as littleteapot pointed out, it's more than possible, if not likely, that the drugs prescribed are simply treating the symptoms, not the disease. e.g. if someone is psychotically violent, sedating them all the time isn't really treating the problem.

Schizophrenia may simply be what happens when something goes wrong in the Human brain/mind and it just breaks (like PTSD, for instance), with no distinct cause. It's like calling 'broken bones' a disease when it's simply something that happens when you fall too far onto a hard surface. We can't treat the fall; we can only treat the broken bones. In this sense, schizophrenia would not be a real illness. I'm not saying I subscribe to this; I'm just trying to come up with a viewpoint from which one could argue that schizophrenia isn't 'real'.

On the other hand, schizophrenia refers to a collection of symptoms that arise in certain people. In this sense, schizophrenia certainly exists (like PTSD exists), because there exist people with these symptoms.


But remember, they used to think homosexuality was an illness.

Hallucinations are natural in today's world and they are merely glorified day dreams. Doctors are quick to jump to write scripts and treat this bull-crap and because schizophrenia is a word that sounds so scientific and genuine, the confounded patients are willing to let them.

There are many factors that cause one's imagination to run amuck like for instance, the use of acid or pot. It is not a genetic disease if you messed up your own mind. THC can stay in your fat cells and cause you to get high months later even when you aren't using. When I was in the hospital, I met a mentally handicapped woman. When she needed to get into the hospital, she had to wait three weeks to get committed because the beds were full of drug users and suicidal prison inmates who were taken in by the cops EPC (Emergency Protective Custody, no waiting list). I find it a shame that the people will real brain diseases are left to suffer because some assholes willingly doped up their own minds out of their skulls and needed someone to babysit.

Last year, Netherlands researchers reviewed five studies and concluded that the use of marijuana (cannabis) approximately doubles the risk of developing schizophrenia. Because the studies excluded anyone with a history of psychosis and controlled for the use of other drugs, they were "able to show the specific effects of cannabis."

You don't even need to be a narcotics user to have your behavior classified as schizophrenia. In fact, the number one cause of hallucinations is caffeine. Caffeine tolerance has nothing to do with it, even a cup of tea can cause you to hear voices (like a pin dropping in a quiet room). In todays world, there is so much stimulation that our minds are bound to sooner or later crack.

Caffeine-induced psychosis, whether it be delirium, manic depression, schizophrenia, or merely an anxiety syndrome, in most cases will be hard to differentiate from organic or non-organic psychoses….

So-called hallucinations are known as positive symptoms, but the catch all side of schizo, that allows doctors to sound like they know what they are talking about, is the negative symptoms (mania and depression). Mood is not a disorder, it's a mood. If you are an overly happy person or an overly pissy person, that is just who you are. Expecting some pill or shot to change that, just makes you a stupid person as well.

This post has been edited by Jake Jilg: Sep 3 2008, 05:49 PM

Hallucinations are natural in today's world and they are merely glorified day dreams.

This is why people think you're crazy. The vast majority of us do *not* regularly experience hallucinations with no apparent cause -- daydreaming isn't even close to genuine hallucinations.

There are many factors that cause one's imagination to run amuck like for instance, the use of acid or pot. It is not a genetic disease if you messed up your own mind.

Okay, so, someone isn't hallucinating, then they take drugs, then they're hallucinating, and that's totally fine. But if someone is hallucinating without drugs, then they take antipsychotics, then they stop hallucinating, there's something wrong with that? Explain this.

This post has been edited by rmuser: Sep 3 2008, 08:33 PM

Okay, so, someone isn't hallucinating, then they take drugs, then they're hallucinating, and that's totally fine. But if someone is hallucinating without drugs, then they take antipsychotics, then they stop hallucinating, there's something wrong with that? Explain this.

Anti-psychotics block the neurotransmitter, dopamine. Dopamine is responsible for pleasure, but too much of it can cause elevated mood, extreme pleasure and/or hallucinations and that's why people use cocaine. It inhibits the re-uptake of dopamine (increasing the amount of dopamine absorption) and it makes you trip balls. Caffeine does the same thing chemically to a certain level. Simply too much caffeine or the lack-there-of (withdraws) can cause hallucinations. There are so many other chemicals in todays average consumption that it leads me to believe that "someone is hallucinating without drugs" is a contradictory term.

So the anti-psychotics WILL work in stopping hallucinations (I'm not denying that). However, the anti-psychotics themselves have adverse effects on the psyche. For instance, the lack of dopamine in the brain will cause you to be severely depressed and that is why depression should not ever be considered a symptom of schizo/bipolar patients on anti-psychotics, even though doctors claim it is. The drugs, themselves, cause the depression, not the illness. And not only that, but when the dopamine transmitters are constantly being blocked by the anti-psychotics, the starving brain will put the production of dopamine into overdrive and thus going off of the anti-psychotics will release the dam on the chemical river and you start tripping like being on cocaine.

When you are tripping like that, you think the illness is real, because going off the meds caused it and going back on the meds makes it stop. I speak from experience that going off the meds made me trip way worse than I originally was when I first saw a doctor for the condition. I also realized that the longer I went without meds, the better I became. This is a big step forward, because those meds are very harmful. Messing with your mind is dangerous. It can even mess up your heart rhythm. Neuroleptics leave long time users with far more serious conditions than pyschosis. In the home that I live in, I see 40 and 25 year olds using walkers and wheelchairs because prolonged usage off anti-psychotics has severely messed up their motor skills. I myself have suffered from akathasia. My full body was jumping at random in the hospital. A different doctor lowered my dosage by literally 90% and it mostly went away, but I still have a slight twitch from it.

I also realized that the longer I went without meds, the better I became.

hahahah that's exactly what every patient with schizophrenia "thinks" when they go off their meds. finally they can return to their secret life of decoding messages sent by the dixie chicks, while being spied on by the government.

hahahah that's exactly what every patient with schizophrenia "thinks" when they go off their meds. finally they can return to their secret life of decoding messages sent by the dixie chicks, while being spied on by the government.

That would be true if life was a book or some award winning Hollywood movie, but it's not. I tripped like hell at first going off my meds, but everything began to subside as my brain finally got back it's own chemical level without any meds interfering with the natural equilibrium.

Schizophrenia may simply be what happens when something goes wrong in the Human brain/mind and it just breaks (like PTSD, for instance), with no distinct cause. It's like calling 'broken bones' a disease when it's simply something that happens when you fall too far onto a hard surface. We can't treat the fall; we can only treat the broken bones. In this sense, schizophrenia would not be a real illness. I'm not saying I subscribe to this; I'm just trying to come up with a viewpoint from which one could argue that schizophrenia isn't 'real'.

Excellent paragraph!

Too much of the human brain's function is a mystery, treated by even the most modern of medical techniques on a level comperable to shaman prescribing herbs and a ritual because of bad spirits, and it working.

Was it the herbs? Was it the prayer? Why does it work sometimes and not others?

All too often things are chalked up to chemical imbalance, but "balance" in the brain is a wide area the boundaries of which are generally only known to be crossed with symptomatic/observable manifestation (except for the rare cases that can be shown through brain activity scans, but even those can be misleading because often the same areas of the brain can be excited in a "normal"/nominally responsive person with the proper stimuli).

Brain science still has a long way to go, but just because some says you have X psychological disorder and you think you are fine is a pretty weak basis for an argument.

This post has been edited by Sturmrabe: Oct 27 2008, 01:39 PM

I should preface my comments with a disclosure that in my youth I had been diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and no doubt there were several times when I was quite delusional, and so I am now in no position to speak in a condescending manner, but...

Brain science still has a long way to go, but just because some says you have X psychological disorder and you think you are fine is a pretty weak basis for an argument.

If subject A has X psychological disorder, and the symptoms of X psychological disorder include an inability to distinguish delusion from reality, how do we prove to subject A that X psychological disorder is in fact real?

If subject A has X psychological disorder, and the symptoms of X psychological disorder include an inability to distinguish delusion from reality, how do we prove to subject A that X psychological disorder is in fact real?

Beatings, electric shock, and heavy doses of medication... you could always hope for a moment of lucidity, TIME, or you won't, and you hope that meds make them able to comprehend the situation...

Dependant on them taking their meds.

If there was an easy answer there would be so many people wandering the streets mumbling to themselves now would we?

I have seen enough weird people on the street to tell you that people hear voices inside their own heads.

My cousin had bipolar disorder and he killed himself because of it. It's real. End of debate.

bipolar disorder is a form of depression, not schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is an umbrella term for a spectrum of disorders in the blurry area that is mental health. From my experience in training its the best definition we have right now for a number of disorders that we can't pin down pathophysiologically to the molecular level as we can with most other non-brain illness. As such it 'exists' soley as a definition and any argument about it would be semantic in nature.

Do Schizophrenic conditions exist as far as we can observe and fit them to these definitions? Yes. Do we have an exact pathophysiological understanding of the underlying nature of those definitions? No. Consequently we are at a stage where we observe, but can do very little to treat mental illness. We are at the stage now in psychiatry where the rest of medicine was pre-germ theory; ill-defined, fuzzy and trying to help in the best way we can with the limited array of antipsychotics, mood stabilisers and antidepressants we have at our disposal. These drugs are, as you rightly state, whole-brain affecting medications and their side effects for some patients can be worse than the disorders themselves. It's effectively using a sledgehammer to crack a nut (no pun intended). That said, they do help the majority of patients, if sometimes only a little.

Mental health, at least in the UK, is stigmatised, neglected and drastically underfunded. You rightly state that most psychiatric consultations are a joke. I have seen people diagnosed with depression and put on antidepressants within a 10 minute window by doctors who are too rushed, too tired or simply don't care. These people come back time and time again and rotate around every drug possible to no avail because the only cure isn't chemical, it's changing their entire situation that made them that way, and changing their perception of the world and themselves.

The point is, mental illness isn't just like an infection that you hit with antibiotics and eradicate, it's biological, psychological and sociological. To treat all three of these aspects is currently beyond the physician's reach.

Hopefully when we understand every part of the brain to the synaptic and molecular level, we will be able to diagnose and treat more effectively, targeting the exact area of the brain we require. Until then we can only use our blunt tools and definitions. Your experience, and those of others unfortunate enough to be in the same position reflects this sad state of affairs.

This post has been edited by Submatrix: Nov 27 2008, 02:41 PM

Most everything has already been said.

Just wondering, was your "Schizophrenia" sudden onset?

Most everything has already been said.

Just wondering, was your "Schizophrenia" sudden onset?

Dude's been banned. Let's say "not really".

Here's something relevant, in order to use FACTS in this debate. There is a measurable change in brain function when people have schizophrenia:

http://www.schizophrenia.com/research/schiz.brain.htm

For the lazy, here's a preview:


UCLA Researchers Map How Schizophrenia Engulfs Teen Brains


UCLA Press Release - Monday, September 24, 2001

UCLA brain researchers using a powerful new technique have created the first images showing the devastating impact of schizophrenia on the brain. The findings, published in the Sept. 25 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences*, show how a dynamic wave of tissue loss engulfs the brains of schizophrenic patients in their teen-age years.

bipolar disorder is a form of depression, not schizophrenia.

You're right that bipolar disorder isn't schizophrenia, but it isn't a form of depression either. Depression and bipolar disorder are closely related but different. Bipolar disorder is when people go through alternating periods of deep depression and extreme hyperactive happiness (or irritability in some cases), whereas depression is just depression without any happy periods.

I am schizophrenic...

like...for real.

Its not like in the movies or anything...but I can have these episodes of frantic audiovisual-hallucinations and paranoia. Times where I believed the high frequencies from a television where send out by the government to f**k us up.
Times where I thought everybody was after me, or my life was a reality tv show.
I talk to myself allot. I interviewed myself in my head as another person. There where like 2 me's, but like...the same.It was weird to say the least.
I heard people screaming behind my back, I stopped taking showers,stopped washing my clothes, stopped shaving,my appartment was a total mess.
I drew allot of weird stuff, wrote allot of poems about death and how it could be a really enjoyable experience, and I'm not emo or anything.
Dreams are still the coolest thing in the world IMO, Dreams and Drugs.

I'm seeing profecional help,I moved back in with my mom,and I'm on the road to recovery.

Thank you

well if it's not real, I find it very odd that the other identical twin has a 50% chance of getting schizophrenia if the other has it. that's quite a leap for a fake disease that is linked highly to genetics.

50% is not a lot for identical twins, they tend to 70-80% in most chronic illnesses.

Another guy (I'm not bothered to quote THAT too) said something about medication not working if its psychological. Not true.
They both work more or less equally to both kinds. (feedback body-brain and brain-body)

But on topic, and I mean the first post (I'm way too tired to read the whole conversation right now).

Schizophrenia isnt a one line definition. The current favorite is having symptomes. If you have this many symptomes, you have the disease. Though they are changing the rules right now becouse this is too much black/white, its how they diagnose you as schizofrenia atm.

Ferretty is right, bipolar is a depression. Oh, he's wrong too. Bipolar is a form of depression. Like he sais in his post and denies it.
and paracat, the first few are good symptones. The rest are highly unlikely, unless paired with a good depression.

Somehow I'm worried I'm not making sense and talking gibberish, but I'll feel right better when I'll scroll around the forum